An Interview with Su Friedrich

Extract The interview took place on November 17, 2019, at Su Friedrich's home in Brooklyn, New York. barbara mennel: Let's start at the beginning. How did you become a filmmaker?su friedrich: I graduated from Oberlin College with a degree in studio art and art history in 1975. I had primarily studied photography as the studio part of my major. I moved to New York City in 1976, and for two years I was doing photojournalism and studio photography, but then I attended a three-night Super 8 mm workshop with David Lee at the Millennium Film Workshop. Dave had studied at SUNY Buffalo [State University of New York Buffalo] with Hollis Frampton. I was also seeing films that were interesting to me, European art cinema—for example, films by Rainer Werner Fassbinder—at the Bleecker Street Cinema. It was exciting to me, but I didn't consider going to film school, partly because I had been in school long enough but mainly because it was incredibly expensive, and I had no money.I became a filmmaker when I realized that it was much more interesting to make films than to do photography because one could work with movement, rhythm, and multiple images. But it was a difficult decision because I had a nice camera, and I had built a darkroom in the storefront where I was living at the time. I had invested a lot in photography, and I also really loved it. The Millennium was a miracle because it was so cheap. One could rent a camera for a dollar a day and use the editing rooms for a very small monthly membership fee. There were many filmmakers who provided instruction, so I didn't need to attend film school. After some months, Dave and I became involved with each other, and for a couple of years, we were partners. He was also eight years older than me, and he was, in many ways, my mentor as I learned how to make films.bm: Did you see yourself as part of a generation at the time?sf: The fact that I was going to the Millennium all the time to rent equipment and to do my editing and optical printing meant that I was getting an education in experimental film. I started going to the screenings every weekend, with programs by filmmakers who were older and had a body of work. I considered them as a generation or half generation before me. I became friends with Leslie Thornton, who isn't that much older than me, but she had also gone to SUNY Buffalo. It wasn't so much a matter of age but that I was hanging out with filmmakers who had gotten a film education. They had learned how to make films, and I learned from them.bm: Who influenced your films and filmmaking?sf: In 1978 I would've said Maya Deren and Margarethe von Trotta. Now I'd say that there are many more people, and films or filmmakers aren't the only influence on my work because I also read a lot. Leslie Thornton and her films were very influential. Dave's films were very instructive, and certainly Hollis Frampton, Stan Brakhage, Maya Deren, Joyce Wieland, and Alan Berliner. Over the years some people played big parts in some phase of my filmmaking, and then they moved away. Others have been consistently present through the forty-one years, for example my friend the writer Cynthia Carr. I also watched all kinds of films, including experimental films, and those taught me a lot. And it wasn't just about how to make a film. … The fact that I saw so many films by Fassbinder when I was going to the Bleecker Street Cinema let me know that there was a gay filmmaker who was very out in his work, and it made me think that this is the kind of film that I should be making. But I also recognized the difference, since he was making feature films in color, and I had only $7 to make a movie. In addition, I was a member of the collective that published the women's art magazine Heresies: A Feminist Publication on Art and Politics. The collective consisted mostly of older artists and a few who were my age. It was important for me as a young woman who had come to New York to become a photographer and filmmaker to have these women as role models who had persisted even though women were being rejected and ignored at the time. One day I had a conversation with one of them because I had been doing a lot of production work for the magazine. I told her that I wanted to work on my films, but I was spending too much time on Heresies. She said, "Go and be a filmmaker; you must do the thing you really want to do and believe you should be doing." It was amazing to get that permission. I'm very grateful to her.bm: Did you read feminist theory or feminist film theory, or did you have a circle of feminists around you?sf: I've never been a theory person. I mainly studied studio art when I was in college. Half my degree was in art history, but Oberlin had a very traditional art history program. I rebelled against the idea of categorization, which has been an issue my entire life. For example, in a class about Baroque art, a professor might be talking about a certain painter and telling us that this person fits the criteria of the Baroque. I disagreed; I often thought that historians or theoreticians just invented these categories to discuss the vast world of paintings or films. But even then, I had a strong sense of the individuality of each person's art, so even if I could see commonalities within a group of painters who were being called Baroque, I still didn't think they should be locked into the category. This has been the story for me as a filmmaker my whole life. Sometimes people see me as Su Friedrich the experimental filmmaker and then as Su Friedrich the documentary filmmaker. My work never fits. If somebody else is called an experimental filmmaker, it makes sense to me because of their body of work. If somebody else is called a documentary filmmaker, it makes sense. But for me it never did.When it comes to feminist theory, I would say that I did a lot of reading early on about women's history and the new radical feminist texts that were coming out, works by Kate Millett, Ti-Grace Atkinson, Jill Johnston, as well as older works by women like Simone de Beauvoir, and I also read as much women's literature as I could find beyond the usual "accepted" writers who we'd been introduced to in school. When I was in college, the groundbreaking work by Linda Nochlin, Why Have There Been No Great Women Artists? was published, and it made a huge impression on me. When I started making films, I read books that were influential at the time, for example by the feminist film scholar Judith Mayne, because I wanted to learn anything I could about women filmmakers. I wondered what women might be doing differently than men in the films that I'd seen my whole life. But I didn't spend a lot of time reading the more arcane theory that was being written. That's never been much of an interest for me.bm: Can you describe your process of making films?sf: I've made over twenty films, and each time it's different, even though there are some things about the process that are the same, or similar, in various films. I go through a process that begins when an idea comes. In the case of Rules of the Road, I walked out the door and saw a car that looked like our car. That's all it took. In the case of The Ties That Bind, I was thinking about making a film about a woman who doesn't have a home. One day I realized that it was really about my mother and the loss of her home in Germany. I went from the abstract idea to a specific story. In the case of The Odds of Recovery, I had too many surgeries. Sink or Swim resulted from reading Alice Miller's The Drama of the Gifted Child, which reminded me of my father.Seeing Red happened because I was making From the Ground Up. My partner, Cathy [Nan Quinlan], said that I seemed incredibly bored making this film about coffee and suggested that I make something about how I really feel. I got angry, went to my studio, turned on the camera, and started talking. I ended up making Seeing Red. Sometimes it's by chance; sometimes it's a deliberate plan. In the case of The Head of a Pin, I had stopped shooting film. We were in the country, and I had borrowed a video camera from a friend, and I walked in the kitchen, and Cathy and our friend Barbara were sitting under the table looking at something. I sat down, and it was the spider. Damned If You Don'thappened because I was living in Berlin, and one night when I was really drunk, I was talking to a friend back home, and I said, "I want to make a film about a woman who falls in love with a nun." There are lots of reasons for making a film. I usually test out the basic idea with somebody. For example, I say to Cathy or a friend that I'm going to make a film about some topic or person or whatever and see what they say. After the idea comes the grueling process of writing a text. That usually means scribbling, then clarifying, then rewriting many times, then showing it to one or more people and finding out what they think, and then more rewriting. All along the way, there's getting lots of rigorous feedback from people. Sometimes I shoot while I write. Sometimes I wait until I really feel like I've solidified the writing before I start shooting the visual materials to accompany the text. All that goes on for a while. Sometimes I do archival research until I finally sit in the editing room. Editing is a very long process. I work in small units. I never put the whole film together in a preliminary, loosely cut way, which is what some other editors or filmmakers do. I can only work on small sections at a time and try to get them pretty tightly cut before I move on to another part. Editing is different now than when I edited in film on the flatbed. Because of the difficulty of editing in film, I had to plan things out ahead of time. If I was cutting something to a voice-over, I would time out all the footage because I would assign certain images to one story, so I would need to know that it took a minute and a half to tell the story. I knew how many shots I had, and I would want to put them in a certain order to line up with the story. I had to figure out whether a certain shot was long enough to cover what was being said. I measured, calculated, and planned a lot before I sat down to edit. With the computer I don't have to set up that much ahead of time. But the many years of cutting on film were important; they taught me how to edit well. It's hard for me now with my students when I tell them that they need to look at all their footage. They want to click through and pick things out quickly. They see a frame that probably will work, and they use it. But you must learn your shots, you must know your footage well before deciding how you are going to put the shots together. The person sitting in the editing room with me is another important aspect. I don't understand people who think they can make work on their own. I know people who tell me that they've just finished a film, and I go see it and realize it's not very good. If I ask who was looking at it and what kind of feedback they got, it becomes clear that they haven't gotten any feedback. People like my work and are impressed by the way it's written or the way it's edited, but they need to know that it's not just me; I'm not the one who should get all the credit. They should know that Cynthia Carr or Leonie Gombrich rewrote something, and Cathy, Janet Baus, or Peggy Ahwesh came in on the editing. They contributed a lot to the film, which is an important part of my process. Theorizing about the way women work or what the female gaze is does not help me think about the way I make a film, even if it might feed subliminally into my work.bm: Scholarly literature portrays the generational and gender conflicts of the 1980s and especially the late 1980s as contentious. In 1989 you signed a letter to the International Experimental Film Congress in Toronto in which the young generation revolted against the older generation. It seems that in your memory it was not as contentious as it appears in the scholarship. The letter claimed that the event was not showing any work by women and that it was too expensive. The signatories were either female or gay male up-and-coming young filmmakers.sf: I do remember the kerfuffle at the time and wanting to sign the letter, but I hadn't contributed to drafting it. In 1989 I had been involved in the experimental film world for a decade, and I had made Damned If You Don't and The Ties That Bind. They were films outside of the Brakhage/Frampton model. Sexism, homophobia, and racism characterized the experimental film world. We legitimately felt that the old guard was maintaining their command of the post too much. The Essential Cinema Repertory [1970–1975] by the Anthology Film Archives also fed this feeling, since the most recent films in the Essential Cinema series were made in 1972. It was as if the films that were considered essential stopped being made after that point, which excluded women and gay people. The conflict continued with the New York Film Festival's avant-garde sidebar. Originally, the New York Film Festival didn't isolate experimental film. Sink or Swim was shown in 1990 at the New York Film Festival in Alice Tully Hall [which seats 1,086], the home to the New York Film Festival at Lincoln Center, in a program with PièceTouchée by Martin Arnold and Scenes from the Life of Andy Warhol by Jonas Mekas. It was on the calendar integrated with the regular program, alongside Bernardo Bertolucci's new film, for example. At some point after that, the New York Film Festival separated avant-garde films from their regular program. It curated but also ghettoized and screened at the Walter Reade Theater, which is part of Lincoln Center but is so much smaller [it seats 268]. The of films by women was a and I about that It's not The avant-garde is not any than people are and some are It was no to me that was a when the Toronto event happened because I had seen it at the Millennium and at the for the other New York for experimental It to me as if you saw the and you it to become part of the I don't think it was a matter of wanting to be a part of the It was a matter of there's no that there should be a Let's make it a A few women were into the They were we have Maya Deren in and who doesn't love Maya I was she was in but the whole that there are people who who is in and who is out, and who then that only men are is the The of women's film in the and 1980s was because those films were not being shown in the regular film film to as many women as We still need to the When I made the I was a I was that my work didn't the of the I was not to my work at one or two When I made the I people to think I was because of the and gay people were a by the was after at the time they seemed to be by the film, they the way it the way that the was written with the images so I would say that I because the film was I made The Ties That Bind, an experimental People saw me going in a different that had to do with experimental film as we knew it at the time. People felt like I was doing this other It me. But it was never my to only make films that were as experimental films or to be part of the experimental film I just wanted to make my film, which happened to be Damned If You I felt like I'd been mostly by the of what my films had been even if some women didn't understand or like the of so I wasn't about how they would to Damned If You the other I had some about how the would but the thing is that you have to make what you have to You your work by whether people will like it or At the time, you have to be to be when that When the Film Festival Damned If You a woman filmmaker in the up and said that she didn't think it was time to women on like I did in the But who what the time is when women their images can make images of women as they see I rejected that And I'm some people would still see it that way and would still the film. But if you feel about something, you about whether going to be rejected for thinking it. I sit around might not like my work because it's too You make work about My early work was made in to a lot of the work I was seeing at the example films, even though some of them are filmmakers didn't to to think about whether they were anything that about or whether the film had or that wanted to I thought that was Why not put into the film, not feeling, be more not be a more But I wasn't they didn't do then I'm going to do I knew what I wanted to and I recognized that it was different than what they were The literature of the that in the 1980s and the you and other experimental filmmakers to film and to present your films. you think that this has Did it influence your to Did you with your films as an of your that something that or do you to my work I was just at the Center at the University of in And these it's a more and than the time I took my films on the in Leslie Thornton and I went to the and it was a it was a since this was way before the of the … The screenings were but we came home We had no idea how to get it what to so that we could at But it was a At the for Cinema and the most of the time the filmmaker was in and I had become to the that see films and then with the filmmakers. It could be or and of at I was to a filmmaker I really For filmmakers getting your work out and being present at a or event has been one of the only to make from a There was more when one made films than there is but it was never And with mm films, they were by or art The were to what they are now with and of still more for in the when you made a new film, a lot of people by or have to and put them in the It was but I was very because of the kind of work I had to a I've been doing this for I Sometimes I and sometimes I it The is because it that when filmmakers like other filmmakers who don't make feature films for their work, it to be or if somebody goes to see a in the they just and have a with their friends and about it. I don't know when it when somebody was showing a film in their a film by a filmmaker or by and then people and they the most of I'm not that well for doing all that and But sometimes the is and it does help me to as a you see yourself as an you think you have a your films?sf: are for other people to The really see as do. We don't work that We work from our or and then you go on to the I don't see as making a certain kind of film or a But if I look at some of my older films that I haven't seen for a I'm how certain of my work for example, the the way I or the way I an with a text. is a because a writer has written in their most films many people in the making of even the New films, which were what started the of the If you are a filmmaker who does all of the work then you are the of all that work. It's made by Su I especially in your avant-garde and experimental films, which have a that they from to Can you describe your to I'm a of and When I was I was to the of and My mother only to My me a of in when I was in college. I was to and But I was also up to and going to as You work from that and I don't see a in making something that is seen as and in a by things together. The considered part of is not played at Lincoln me that is very The of and is because you can have the most example, in that of but no different in her than the They just come in different The is the case with films. There are films, but they are all part of a big films are You making yourself your films but especially in The Odds of At the time, you and friends you think it's to make yourself to make important it difficult for or does it come How do you think about your and body on or talking about your of on For my entire as a filmmaker, I've had the of showing a film and then people come up to me to me and then tell me about their their their and their Because my films are people to and they come and tell me about When I was out, I considered this to be since I'm not a I realized that the film a for people to look at their I became very grateful that I had that for people. I'm very when somebody with me. If they want I try to be I realized that people knew so much about me and that I didn't know anything about A would come up to me, and they were a to me. There was this how they were looking at me and talking with me, and how I was to When I was young and doing photography, I did a series of with friends and made a about women's I but I was also reading texts by women about their because they had not been or written about very I felt that we to get this out When I made the I wondered whether I might be a line because I was so many A came up to me after the and said that the film was and that he had like the I I was so I wondered how that was and I walked from the conversation thinking that one can never know who or who might be to know about it. I also learned that people my into their own. When I made Rules of the Road, somebody came up to me and said if they had made that film, it would've been all about of Over the years I've with the of how much to and how much to other people, but I finding that people like that I those things because they've had the or or The most important is whether I'm being I with that If you work long enough and have people around you who are telling you to being you learn that the might be considered But if on a film, you have to go out and shoot and figure out how to put it all together. This is all really hard work, and especially when it comes time for the you being up in your and you just become about whether one shot from the There is another to for example with The Odds of I started it under because Cathy didn't want me to make the film, and she didn't want to have anything to do with it. I had to whether to make it against her and her I ahead and it to be a because she played an role in my filmmaking, as a a a a of so many through the editing she to look at but when she saw her on some of the she was I had to the and her That was the most case of being in a film of and really not wanting to be in it. When it was I had a at the in the I Cathy to come along with me on but she even though all our friends were going to be She said that she so much time seeing me in in that she didn't want to see me in one on the big I finally the for her to me making the film and said that it made sense and that I was And then, she to go to the which made me so The Ties That to my mother before I finished but I didn't Sink or Swim to my before I it. I have to into the people who are in the film. How I will I with them while I'm making and how will they feel about what I've when it's all It's an issue each time I make a film, and it's to each film, the degree to which I Can you about the different of in your films, from the experimental to or documentary your to How do you when to different From the I saw lots of different kinds of films that were interesting to me for all kinds of film has a different I wasn't to work in a certain Experimental films are amazing when one what one can do with images and when you aren't by the of traditional but I also thought that film was If you aren't by one you can use whatever you My film was only of images and was a was by the in which I in a more experimental way than I had in And then The Ties That is a I've whatever or or I in order to say what I wanted to Ties That was going to be a but I didn't want to the as I felt that would me into a much more traditional I was more in the of to find to use all of other images over the of back on

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