"The big story of Canada has been one of continuity." : an interview with Raymond Blake

La grande histoire du Canada est une histoire de continuité.» Entretien avec Raymond Blake Interviewed by / Interviewé par Jason Blake JB I'll start with the conclusion of your most recent book, Canada's Prime Ministers and the Shaping of a National Identity: "Since the Second World War, as each prime minister built onto the story of Canada, continuity largely prevailed.May it ever be so."It's a great conclusion, because you see this continuity throughout the book.I mean, I look back and I think, "What exactly was the difference between St. Laurent and Diefenbaker?"It's a superb, snappy conclusion, without being a gimmick. RBWe are frequently told, even in the 2025 election: "This is an historic election.If you choose the wrong way, it means the country will be torn apart or whatever."And yet, when we look at those individuals since the mid-1940s, it really didn't make any difference who was there.There are a few minor differences here and there between the main parties, but the story of Canada has been one of continuity, and we've had prime ministers of different parties -Liberal and Conservative -and they've really approached the nation in pretty much the same way.JB Right down to employing the same vocabulary."Tolerance" comes through right up until Chrétien, Harper.That's not a critique against either of them, it's just that the word seems to have fallen out of fashion.RB Absolutely, and in line with those words we had continuity, perhaps because the various prime ministers have been able to put aside their personal views, whether on religion, or whether on economics or some other issues, and to do what they thought was best for the nation.And we sometimes forget that fact.We can see how prime ministers put aside their own ideologies and preferences by looking at Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who is frequently seen as a great reformer.He was, but many of his personal views did not find their way into government policy -quite the opposite really.If you interview -entretien Jason Blake "The big story of Canada has been one of continuity."/ An interview with Raymond Blake read the language around the Omnibus Bill in 1968, he does say, "Okay, we're going to change how we do lotteries, drunk driving rules..." and a variety of other things.But really, most Canadians remember his policy on homosexuality when he makes his classic statement: "The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation."But he also says, if you read his words from 1968 or listen to the dialogue from the leaders debate in the 1968 election, "They will have to answer to their God for their wayward ways."But he put his religious views aside and said, as a society, what happens between consenting adults is something the state doesn't care about anymore.He was a devout Catholic and undoubtedly his faith had strict views on homosexuality.And, yet, we sort of see him as this great liberal, when in fact he's not personally, though he was as prime minister.But he's smart enough... as was Harper in the early 2000s, when they had the vote on same-sex marriage.Harper said really, "The state doesn't care, and whatever I think personally doesn't matter."And Paul Martin was also able to do that as well, and so Canada's prime ministers had a great capacity to be able to say -unlike some current leaders around the world -"Damn what I think about certain things personally.We need to do some things as a state that I might not agree with personally."JB That is remarkable.While reading your book, I realized things I thought I knew turned out to be completely wrong.For example, even before Trudeau created Petro Canada, the Liberals didn't have a seat west of Manitoba.So he was already persona non grata in the west.As well, many of us assume there are Liberal topics -that, say, it must have been the Liberals who brought in healthcare or that Brian Mulroney was soft on the environment and cut social spending, but it's not true.RB Absolutely not true.Even though many Canadians might believe, for instance, that Mulroney dismantled the welfare state in Canada, spending on social programmes actually increased during his term in office.It was the Liberals under Chrétien who reduced spending on social policy and then, like Mulroney and Justin Trudeau, he directed transfers to those most in need, not reviving the universality that had been a sacred cow in Canada since 1945 and the first payment of family allowances.JB Now, sorry to mention this, talking to a historian, but Canadian history is a required subject in only three Canadian provinces, as well as for Francophone minorities in some places.That would really surprise anyone from the Central European region.Does that change how you teach history at university?RB This is something that has troubled Canadian leaders for a very long time, but they are limited in what they can do at the federal level, since education is a provincial responsibility.We don't have a Department of Education at the national level.And Revue d'Etudes Canadiennes en Europe Centrale | 7 interviewentretien Jason Blake "The big story of Canada has been one of continuity."/ An interview with Raymond Blake interview -entretien Jason Blake "The big story of Canada has been one of continuity."/ An interview with Raymond Blake JB That was my great disastrous prediction with the rise of the Internet.I said, "Oh, great, now everyone will be reading newspapers from across the political spectrum..."RB What they really did get into, and Canadians generally, I think, got into in the Mark Carney narrative, was that he was the guy with the great CV to stand up to Trump.And Trump is the new big, bad threat, he's like the Fenians of the 1860s, he's poised to come over the border if we are not vigilant and act decisively.So, the continuity between the 1860s and 2024, 2025 is just staggering.Yet those in the Fenian Brotherhood, and those who were in the American Civil War, wanted to go back to their farms, they wanted to go back to their families, and even though the American Army was decommissioning all the guns and you could buy them for a dollar or whatever it was, and soldiers did that, those guns were not purchased to attack Canada.Yet the message then was -and of course, we saw this in the couple of skirmishes on the border (although a little more than a skirmish was involved) -the notion was "God, we have to join together in Confederation, because the Fenians are coming over to take Canada and then trade us back to Britain if the British leave Ireland, right?"JB That's actually candy if you're a Canadian politician, in terms of unity at least.What did Jean Charest say to Carney? "You're the luckiest fucking guy in politics"?RB Absolutely!And the Liberals were done politically before Trump began his antics.And of course, Carney created the narrative "I'm the guy to deal with Trump."Then you have people like Neil Young and Mike Myers, neither one of which had lived in Canada for years, donning the Canadian jersey, going to the hockey rink, and warning about the treachery of the Americans.That "elbows up" commercial that Mike Myers did with Carney.It was so powerful, and Canadians just ate it up… So social media is a different way of disseminating and creating narratives.It's the same sort of approach, but the technology is different.I think it's going to be with us for a while and it is a great way for prime ministers to tell their stories, even if they do it through different media than did, say, Mackenzie King, whose speeches were printed in newspapers, and people read them.JB What about the idea of a dumbing down of discourse?Do you see that?RB You know, I don't think we have "dumbed down" the discourse.For this last book, I read hundreds of… probably thousands of speeches from prime ministers.I say in the book that a prime minister, even within an election year, but even outside, had, basically, a dozen speeches from which they would draw to speak to service clubs, to the United Nations, to a political rally, or an event in Shelburne, Nova Scotia, or in Saskatoon. Revue d'Etudes Canadiennes en Europe Centrale | 13 interviewentretienJason Blake "The big story of Canada has been one of continuity."/ An interview with Raymond Blake

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